Donald Trump abruptly ended his Meet the Press interview with NBC’s Kristen Welker, calling her “crooked or stupid,” accusing NBC of being “a one-sided crooked network,” removing his microphone and walking off camera after Welker repeatedly pressed him to provide evidence for his claims about election fraud in California’s primary elections. The interview – conducted in Wisconsin amid rain that Trump complained about at length – had already covered his desire to pay $1.776 billion to January 6 rioters, his threats of military action against Iran and his comparison of the FBI’s Mar-a-Lago raid to political persecution. The moment he could not handle was being asked for evidence.
The exchange that ended the interview happened this way:
Welker: “Just to be very clear, there’s no evidence of what you’re saying.”
Trump: “There’s a lot of evidence. There’s tremendous evidence. There’s nothing but evidence. The election was rigged. And it’s happening again in California. They’re cheating.”
Welker: “Do you have evidence?”
Trump: “All I have to do is look.”
Welker: “That’s not evidence.”
Trump: “They’re crooked. Just like you’re crooked. You’re either crooked or stupid.”
He then looked to end the interview, appearing to remove his microphone with enough force that Welker flinched.
“Sorry. Let’s call it quits because I’ve had enough. Thank you, darling. Have a good time.”
What he was claiming
The specific allegation Trump was making in those final minutes concerned California’s primary elections. Republicans, Welker noted, were actually doing well in the California primaries. Trump’s response was that they were “dropping fast because it’s a rigged election.”
California’s vote-counting process takes several days. This is not exceptional or suspicious – California has what is known as a jungle primary, in which all candidates regardless of party compete, and the top two advance regardless of party affiliation. Mail ballots, which are legal and ubiquitous, take time to count. California officials, both Republican and Democrat, have urged faster counting while acknowledging it takes time.
Trump’s specific concern was that Los Angeles mayoral candidate Spencer Pratt, a conservative, and Trump-endorsed gubernatorial candidate Steve Hilton were both in second place in their respective contests, with Democratic candidates closing on them. The explanation Trump offered for this: cheating.
The explanation Welker offered: that’s how they count the votes in California.
Trump’s evidence: “All I have to do is look.”
The $1.776 billion for January 6 rioters
Before the California meltdown, the interview had already produced significant material. Trump expressed strong support for what critics have called a “slush fund” – a $1.776 billion package to compensate people prosecuted by the Justice Department under Joe Biden, including those convicted of crimes relating to the January 6, 2021 attack on the Capitol.
“If it was up to me, I’d pay them the kind of money that they deserve,” Trump told Welker. “People have been destroyed. Lives have been destroyed. Many suicides, think of it.”
The fund has been challenged in federal court and temporarily halted. The political response within the Republican Party has been remarkable for its hostility. Former Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell, not previously known as a restraining influence on Trump’s more ambitious proposals, issued a statement after members met with acting Attorney General Todd Blanche: “So the nation’s top law enforcement official is asking for a slush fund to pay people who assault cops? Utterly stupid, morally wrong – take your pick.”
Republican senators revolted over the fund and the reconciliation package ultimately passed the Senate without the payout provision. Senate Republicans had to defeat multiple Republican-led attempts to add language restricting the White House from implementing the fund at all. Chuck Schumer described the intraparty chaos with evident satisfaction: “Republicans are in complete disarray, they’re at each other’s throats… Republicans have tied themselves up in knots and torn each other to shreds over Trump’s brazenly corrupt slush fund for his billionaire cronies and January 6 insurrectionists.”
Trump, in the Meet the Press interview, showed no interest in this version of events. “I think the weaponization fund is a great idea. If they get it approved, that’s great. If they don’t get it approved, I’d be disappointed.”
Iran, and a direct threat
The interview also covered the Iran war. Trump directly threatened military force to secure Iran’s remaining reserves of enriched uranium. “If we make a deal, if we make a deal now we’re friendly, we’ll all go together. It’ll be our equipment. We’ll take the nuclear material out and destroy it. Now, if we don’t make a deal, then we’re going to take them out militarily very harshly.”
He refused to say whether fuel prices had peaked. He denied breaking campaign promises by launching the war at all: “I didn’t promise anything. I don’t like these endless wars. This is not an endless war.”
The war began in February. Its disruption to the Strait of Hormuz, as we reported in our coverage of the UN famine warning piece, has put 45 million people at risk of starvation if fertiliser ships cannot pass through within weeks. Americans are becoming “increasingly impatient” with the conflict, as the BBC’s North American correspondent told Radio 4 this week, noting that energy prices are the primary domestic concern.
The pattern – and what Barbara Walters managed
As we reported in our Barbara Walters 1990 Trump piece, the question of how to interview Trump has been present for at least 35 years. Walters came to her 1990 interview with Trump’s bankers’ testimony in hand. When he claimed the Plaza Hotel was a success, she said “No, they’re not.” She was right. He could not walk out of that interview – it was 1990, the cameras kept rolling and he had not yet been president.
Welker’s interview followed the same basic architecture: prepare the evidence, present the claim, challenge the claim with the counter-evidence, and press for a specific response. Trump’s answer to “do you have evidence?” was “all I have to do is look.” Welker said that’s not evidence. Trump called her crooked or stupid and left.
The specific dynamic is worth noting. Trump walked out not when questioned about the January 6 fund – a policy that Republicans in his own Senate caucus have called “utterly stupid” and “morally wrong.” Not when questioned about launching a war he promised not to start. Not when questioned about evidence of fraud in the 2020 election. He walked out when asked to produce evidence for a real-time claim about the California primary – a claim that had no factual basis at all.
The rain complaints, for context, also featured. Trump noted he had “sat in the rain with you for an hour” as justification for ending the interview. Welker, who had travelled from Washington to Wisconsin specifically for the interview, did not appear to find this argument persuasive.
You can watch the clip below:
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